Saturday, 12 August 2017

A FERTILISED OVUM IS NOT A HUMAN ???





THE IRISH TIMES

PATSY MC GARRY - RELIGIOUS AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT

It is simply wrong to call a fertilised ovum a human

Until 1869, the Catholic Church did not believe removal of a foetus was homicide if it took place before the child began to move in the womb

“A sperm is not a human being, an ■ ovum is not a human being. Together they do not make up a human being. They become an embryo with a very risky future”

It is time we talked about the embryo. Calmly, seriously, rationally. Last week it emerged that scientists at Oregon Health and Science University had successfully modified human embryos to remove genetic mutations that cause heart failure in otherwise healthy young people.
Paula Amato, a fertility specialist involved in the study, said: “This embryo gene correction method, if proven safe, can potentially be used to prevent transmission of genetic disease to future generations.”
Many welcomed the hugely significant implications such “editing” of human genomes can have for the avoidance of genetically inherited conditions, also including cystic fibrosis and some breast cancers. Others demurred. “What about the embryo?” they asked.
The Oregon study was a “game-changer” in scientific and ethical terms, said Aisling de Paor, law lecturer at Dublin City University. It was one step closer to an era of “designer babies” she said. “It opens the door to tailoring the genetic make-up of our children. It also facilitates the selection of hair or eye colour, sporting ability or behavioural traits.”
She continued: “It is no longer in the realm of science fiction to imagine a Gattaca-type society focused on genetic cleansing. We need to be worried about the possibility of this new age of eugenics.”
So, seeming to ignore the positives, she felt the Oregon study could signal a reinvigoration of eugenic-type ideas discredited since the Nazi era. Quite a leap. She did not stop there.
There was, she said, with these new developments, an “ethical concern that technology will be used to screen out disability in society. This is extremely worrying from a human rights perspective, and in relation to the current and future rights of people with disabilities.”
Really? Surely people suffering as a result of genetic disability, not to mention their parents, would be among the first to welcome the possible elimination of such conditions.
Natural processes
Behind such legal and ethical thinking is an overly precious argument against interference with the natural processes of the body, an argument long lost to the great benefit of humanity.
And so we have surgery (which could be equated with genome “editing”), antibiotics, vaccinations etc, all “inteferences” with the overt intent of sustaining the right to life in living, breathing, returned-to-health human beings.

Image result for patsy mc garry

Bishop Kevin Doran was even more unhappy with the Oregon study. Chairman of the Catholic Bishops’ Consultative Group on Bioethics and Life Questions, he objected, full stop, to the use of embryos in such research, regardless of the outcome. Embryos were being “deprived of any other purpose than to be used for research and then disposed of”, he said.
“These individual human beings are all the more entitled to protection precisely because they do not yet have the capacity to speak for themselves or to give their consent,” he said.
It is simply wrong to describe a fertilised ovum as a human being. A fertilised ovum is not a human being,it is a biological reaction. It has no head, no heart, no spine, no consciousness. It is a collection of biological elements which is no more a human being than my leg, my arm, any of my organs, even my toe nails.
It may someday become a human being, but it is not a human being.
A sperm is not a human being, an ovum is not a human being. Together they do not make up a human being. They become an embryo with a very risky future. Studies indicate that up to 50 per cent of embryos are lost before implantation, and of the remainder up to 20 per cent are lost in miscarriages.
In other words, as many as 70 per cent of embryos may never make it.
This raises an obvious question. Why is such massive annual loss of millions of human beings throughout the world not marked anywhere in religious or secular ceremony?
If secular and religious authorities
really, seriously believe the embryo has such unique moral status, why is such regular “disposal” of so many ritually ignored? Indeed it is not so long ago in Ireland, as elsewhere, that miscarriages were disposed of as waste.
And it is not correct for Bishop Doran to state it has been “the consistent belief of the church” that a human embryo has the dignity proper to a person. It has been the belief of the Catholic Church only since 1869, or for the past 148 years.
Independent being
Up to then the Catholic Church did not believe removal of the foetus was homicide if it took place before quickening – when the child began to move in the womb. This quickening, for theologians down through the centuries, was evidence of an independent being within its mother’s body and that was when they deemed it had acquired a soul and became a human being.
Up to then it did not have a soul and so was not a person. It was a foetus.

Image result for pope gregoryXIV

In 1591, Pope Gregory XIV determined quickening took place at 166 days of pregnancy, almost 24 weeks – coincidentally the current legal limit on abortion in the UK.
To spell it out, removal of the foetus before then was not considered homicide in church teaching because you were not dealing with a human being but with a foetus without a soul. That, more or less, was the church position for 1,869 years and with a grounding that makes so much more sense than that of the past 148 years which merely asserts as belief that an embryo is a human being.
‘‘ Removal of the foetus before 166 days was not considered homicide in Church teaching because you were not dealing with a human being but with a foetus without a soul

PAT SAYS:

I was surprised to see this article by Patsy McGarry the other morning in THE IRISH TIMES.

I may be wrong - but I think it a rather controversial article in Ireland where the public is so divided on matters like abortion and gene editing.

And Patsy Mc Garry is hardly famous for being controversial.

He is very friendly with Archbishop Diarmuid Martin of Dublin and he has been very, very slow to publish articles about the Maynooth scandals etc.




I would have thought that Patsy liked to keep well in with the Catholic Hierarchy and this article will probably annoy many of them - not least Kevin Doran the Bishop of Elphin who thinks that homosexuality is a disability like Downs Syndrome.

But I must say that I learned things I did not know from this article.

For instance, I DID NOT KNOW that up until 1869 the Catholic Church did not regard the removal of a foetus from the womb as killing !

And I did not know that in 1591 Pope Gregory XIV said that the soul appeared in the foetus at 166 days of gestation - 26 weeks into pregnancy.





Image result for the human soul
One of the questions that have always perplexed me was the question of when God infused the soul into the foetus. To be on the safe side I had always settled for ensoulment "at conception". 

So, who is right?

Is ensoulment at 166 days as a pope said?

Or is it at conception?

Or is it at some other time?

As Patsy McGarry pointed out 50% of conceptions do not lead to babies developing or being born? 

People often ask for serious blogs.

Well this is one TODAY!



57 comments:

  1. With modern pre-natal three dimensional scans and our ability of modern foetal medicine to perceive a heart beat and distinguish the beginnings of every organ and feature at such an extremely early stage in the embryo and to perceive the "pain reaction" when the abortion injection into it is made, it is a very different story from the state of knowledge in 1869..
    The Church no longer clings to the belief that the earth is flat either!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Bishop Doran of Sligo thinks that being gay is like having Downs Syndrome.

      That sounds pretty flat earth to me.

      Delete
    2. Let him repeat that to An Taoiseach.
      Whoever is responsible for ordaining him to the episcopate has a lot to answer for.

      Delete
  2. Pat here is a little science for you. The heart of a baby starts beating at 5 weeks in the womb at least. The heart. Where is your heart? And don't throw out your Catholic taliban crap either.

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    Replies
    1. The views above are Patsy McGarry's and not mine.

      We are having a discussion. Is that not allowed?

      Delete
    2. 08.03 You sound like Bernie Smyth. What a horrible disgusting woman.

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    3. 12.59.What an intolerant bigot you are. Bernie Smith is to be admired,supported and encouraged for her pro life views. You seem ignorant with crap one liners..We'll pray for you. KEEP UP YOUR COURAGEOUS WORK BERNIE.....

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    4. God bless Bernie. She tells like it is! More power to her! That's why the abortionist movement and the lily-livered, so-called "Catholic" liberals hate her so much.

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    5. Bernie Smith supporter using loud capital letters on their posts today. Sad really but pathetic more so. Bernie is a convicted criminal because of her fundamentalist clap trap on Abortion. She hounded and persecuted poor Dawn Purvis. Is this the actions of a sane rational so called Christian person? More like the equivalent to Muslim fundamentalism.

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    6. Bernie's case was thrown out of court - you moron! She had no case to answer. She is not a "criminal". Get your facts straight. "Poor Dawn Purvis" - that would be that timid wee UVF woman? Aye right!

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    7. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-33317597

      Bernie won this case on appeal. It figure that Purvis - a mouthpiece for the murderous UVF - an organisation that gave us psychopathic serial killers like the Shankill Butchers - would have no bother with the dismemberment of children in the womb.

      Delete
  3. Nigel Biggar has been appointed to the Pontifical Academy for life. He thinks abortion is permissible up to 18 weeks. The Pope, quite rightly, has called together all the experts in the field. Abortion, like everything else is not a black or white issue. It has to be looked at unemotionally and forensically.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. 8.26: How morally skewed you are to suggest that abirtion has to be loiked at unemotionally and forensically. That attitude cintribures to the dehumanisation of the unbirn child and to abortion on demand, mostly as a social convenience. The UNBORN CHILD deserves our ultimate respect and support. While acknowledging medical challenges by pregnant women to even suggest being unemotional and forensic is to slide a slippery road. TRUTH - ABORTION KILLS A HUMAN BEING, A CHILD....

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  4. If only 50% of foetuses are born the greatest abortionist is..God.

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    Replies
    1. That is the prerogative of God alone.
      He gives life and He takes it away.

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    2. Thankfully Bishop Doran does not speak for the whole Church. Both gay and Downs Syndrome people are equal with all of us and certainly in God's eyes.

      Delete
  5. Human beings have been trying to improve the quality of life since time began. Simple things like glasses dentures hearing aids do not demean nature. If serious disabilities can be screened out without damaging the person why not. A church judgement will not solve the matter one way or the other. What does the medical oath say that all doctors are supposed to sign up to.

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    Replies
    1. That's a perceptive insight, Sean. Thankfully your preaching and teaching talents have an outlet again.

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  6. Absolutely as you say, Sean - "without damaging the person".
    Presumably that would include without murdering him because we weren't prepared to allow him the light of day if we had an inkling he might be born less than perfect.

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  7. It's fascinating the range of views that are expressed here.

    It's only a matter of time before this blog becomes the focus of research in postgrad institutions offering programmes in religion, theology, anthropology and sociology.

    ReplyDelete
  8. Breaking! Would appear to be a death knell for Roscrea Mount St Joseph's Cistercian Abbey as their Abbot has been elected by the Monks of Mount Mellary to be theat Abbey's Abbot, and he appears to be going. Unusual to say the least.

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    Replies
    1. +Fintan tweeted about it earlier today. He seems to think it's Roscrea's loss. Seems to be a case of last out turn out the light

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    2. Roscrea was founded by the Monks of Mount Mellerary in Waterford, so it is fitting that they should all return home to Mellerary. That's not to say that that Abbot is the best choice

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    3. Perhaps Fintan doth protest too much

      Delete
  9. Just read the fundamentalism coming out today over this issue. As a Catholic women should have the right to choose in N.Ireland. Abortion should be extended to here, as a Catholic I support it. It's unChristian and inhumane for women to travel to England to have this done.

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    Replies
    1. As you have, no doubt, been told many times before, the "rights" of women do not extend to the right to take the life of an unborn child any more than the right to take the child's life after his birth. Taking innocent human life has got to be about as inhumane as it gets. Absolutely no-one is suggesting that women should travel to England for terminations and certainly no-one whatsoever is forcing them.

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    2. 13.05: It's UNCHRISTIAN AND INHUMANE TO KILL AN UNBIRN CHIKD IN THE WOMB BECAUSE IT'S INCONVENIENT. I DON'T CARE WHAT RELIGION YOU ARE. ABORTION = KILLING A HUMAN BEING.

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    3. You are NOT a Catholic anon at 13:05. You are out of the Faith of you believe "abortion should be extended here".

      You may have been baptised once upon a time but, if you are pro abortion, you are outside the Church.

      If you dare to go to Holy Communion whilst professing these heinous views you are adding to the damnation that you are risking to your immortal soul and making yourself twice as fit for Hell as you already are.

      Scream "fundamentalism" all you like. You can no longer be called a Catholic in any shape or form.

      Delete
    4. 15.21 So you are a Christian/Catholic spouting that language - that scares Me!

      Delete
    5. If you are pro abort 17:21 whilst pretending to be a "Catholic" at the same time, you're being "scared" of me will be the very least of your worries when you leave this world.

      Delete
  10. Pat, given the information posted today, what are your views on abortion? Have changed in light of the article?

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    Replies
    1. I am basically anti abortion except in a few rare cases like saving the life of the mother and possibly rape.

      Abortion can never be regarded as GOOD.

      At best it is occasionally THE LESSER OF TWO EVILS.

      But I do have compassion for all those involved in this sad situation - including the women.

      Life is so sacred and precious and I wonder where you stop if you start down the road ? Designer babies? Hitler's Master Race?

      Gene editing to cure diseases? I find this a moral minefield.

      Delete
    2. Never forget some who are raped still keep their child and those that did are grateful for the choice they made.

      Delete
  11. The Catholic Church has condemned procured abortion as immoral since the 1st century. Early Christian writings rejecting abortion are the Didache, the Epistle of Barnabas, the Apocalypse of Peter and the works of early writers such as Tertullian, Athenagoras of Athens, Clement of Alexandria and Basil of Caesarea. But of course Patsy McGarry would be a far higher authority than those mutton heads.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. You @14.42 (and the post at 14.11)are correct in your detail. Thank you both and others in similar vein.
      But of course Patsy Mc Garry has to earn his journalistic fees by coming up with a "new twist" on the matter. He will attract attention by stirring things up a little and giving The Times' readers something controversial to chew over at the dinner table. Job done. That's what he's there for.
      They used to say "You become what you eat.." I think it might be also sometimes true to say that we can become what we read....unless of course our moral compass is pretty secure to begin with...

      Delete
  12. *** BREAKING ***

    Deacon Aidan Gallagher has been stepped aside as Gardai investigate allegations made against the then Deacon. He is working in an office.

    Tuam correspondent

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  13. You didn't say who "the then Deacon" is.

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  14. Pat, would you give absolution to a woman who had an abortion, or to someone who performed an abortion?

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    Replies
    1. Yes - on the usual conditions - genuine sorrow and the firm resolution not to sin again.

      Often in these situations you also have to help the woman forgive herself?

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    2. Glad to hear you support the woman.

      What about the person who performed the abortion?

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    3. Pat would you give absolution to someone who murdered and was really evil? Don't know if a Priest has been in that position but just wondered what you would do? I suppose you wouldn't forget things like that. It just made me think when someone asked about confessing to Abortion.

      Delete
    4. It is not the size of the sin.
      It s the size of the sorrow.
      It is the depth and sincerity of the purpose of amendment

      Delete
  15. For all the perfect snowflakes here today, lets sing a song. It will take you back to your childhood before you became the nasty person you are today.......

    I ALWAYS DO WHATS RIGHT
    I never do anything wrong
    I'm a Romper Room Do Bee
    A Do Bee all day long

    Do be a sidewalk player
    (Do be a sidewalk player)

    Don't be a street player
    (Don't be a street player)

    Do be a car sitter
    (Do be a car sitter)

    Don't be a car stander
    (Don't be a car stander)

    Do be a plate cleaner
    (Do be a plate cleaner)

    Don't be a food fussy
    (Don't be a food fussy)

    Do be a play safe
    (Do be a play safe)

    Don't be a match toucher
    (Don't be a match toucher)

    Sidewalk player (sidewalk player)
    Car sitter (car sitter)
    Plate cleaner (plate cleaner)
    Play safe (play safe)

    I always do what's right
    I never do anything wrong
    I'm a Romper Room Do Bee
    A Do Bee all day long

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. A very juvenile response..

      Delete
    2. Anon @ 19:00. Thanks for the reminder of happier times!
      Abortion is a divisive issue. There are those, like myself, who believe it is morally wrong in all circumstances except where it is a consequence of treating mum. We will never be convinced otherwise. Others disagree, sometimes violently. Women who have had an abortion deserve our utmost sympathy and understanding. They are not to be condemned for their action nor should they be criminalised. However, given the availability of birth control methods, abortion should not be used as a substitute.

      Delete
  16. It is god who gives the absolution through the priest.
    Haven't been to confession since 2014,
    I still receive holy communion when I go to mass

    ReplyDelete
  17. 15 .21
    What an example you are.
    Thank god I don't know you and I hope u are never invited on to a jury, wearing that judge wig that is attached to your so-called brain.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. 19.47. Thank God there are people, men and women, of all faiths and none, who defend the inalienable right to life of the UNBORN CHILD - A HUMAN BEING. Thank God there are thousands who protect the SANCTITY AND DIGNITY OF THE UNBORN - a state you were once in. Anon at 15.21 has greater moral, human integruty than you'll ever imagine. Simple plain truth : Abortion is the killing if an unborn human being , i.e. A DEFENCELESS CHILD. So, please be human. Anon at 19.00 - total looper and so stupid.

      Delete
    2. Bernie Smith on again with her loud, rude and capital letters. So predictable lol. She chased after me when I refused to sign her sad petition outside Queens University, the language she called me was something else. She was like a fish wife. Possessed!! No wonder why she ended up in the courthouse for doing it to someone else.

      Delete
    3. Bernie would not be writing on this blog - you can be assured of that. I doubt she even knows of it's existence.

      She was accused of "harassment" by that easily frightened wee shrinking violet - Brigadier Purvis of the UVF. Bernie was later cleared of all charges on appeal.

      She "chased after" you, eh, 23:56? Like a "fish wife" was she?

      Your a filthy, rotten, vile, pro abortionist liar. You are like your father, the devil, who is the "prince of lies".

      Delete
    4. 23.56. Bernie Smith has greater dignity and intelligence to blog here. She's too busy defending the right to life of the unborn child. I know she has been harrassed and bullied by the abortion lynch mob. Jesus did say - those who remain true to his gospel and values would even end up in courts. Bernie is a hero. God bless her and her necessary work. May the minds of the chilling abortion group be converted.

      Delete
  18. You mention the date 1591 well on that date the medical profession did not have scans etc that we have today when expectant parents have photo of their unborn child. Also it is obvious from these scans that the unborn are alive in the womb and have a life. They are livings beings made in the image and likeness of God. God creates the Devil delights in abortion and the destruction of human life. Tearing an unborn child apart is horrific and everyone knows that but they tend to ignore it. Bernadette Smyth is a dedicated pro life supporter and a faithful Catholic.

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  19. The wikipedia article on Christian thought on abortion is very interesting.

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  20. Expect that she will be canonised any day now whilst still alive.

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